Part 18

Mr. MAGRATH. Have you any complaints against the pollution of water from this side crossing over to the Canadian side?

Dr. MACAULEY. I do not know that we have. Examinations made by our local board have shown that for several miles up the river the pollution is practically constant in the raw water.

Mr. POWELL. Across the whole river?

Dr. MACAULEY. Right across the channel. We examined all the way across.

Mr. POWELL. But you have had no independent examination?

Dr. MACAULEY. Yes; we have.

Mr. POWELL. And that independent examination showed the same results as our examinations?

Dr. MACAULEY. Practically the same.

Mr. POWELL. Showing that contamination extends across the whole channel?

Dr. MACAULEY. Across the whole channel and all the way up.

Mr. POWELL. Has any opposition on the part of the citizens to purification of the sewage, or sterilization of it, ever manifested itself?

Dr. MACAULEY. I think not. It has been mooted, but no definite action has been taken.

Mr. POWELL. Why was not definite action taken in compliance with the request of the provincial board?

Dr. MACAULEY. I think the lack of funds was the main thing.

Mr. MIGNAULT. Did you ever have studies made as to sewage treatment in Brockville?

Dr. MACAULEY. No; I think not; not for Brockville especially.

Mr. MAGRATH. It is just your water supply that you are contemplating improving?

Dr. MACAULEY. At the present time that is all. We know that we shall have to improve the other in time. No doubt it is dangerous.

Mr. MIGNAULT. But you have not seriously considered it so far?

Dr. MACAULEY. I can not say that we have. It has not been brought to my notice if it has been.

Mr. POWELL. The engineer can probably answer this question, but his experience may not go far enough back. Has any investigation ever been made as to the natural facilities that are afforded for sedimentation beds and things of that kind on the other side of the boundary?

Dr. MACAULEY. I think not.

Mr. POWELL. Have you ever heard of any complaints owing to sewage from vessels passing up and down the river?

Dr. MACAULEY. Yes; we have heard complaints. During the year 1909 one of our wharves was in bad condition, and many of the large boats stopped at a point that was practically over the end of our intake pipe. That was doubtless the cause of our epidemic. There is no doubt that the year the boats were there there was an epidemic. We went so far as to prohibit the boats staying there. We prohibited the large liners or passenger boats tying up to that wharf. For some months, however, they did tie up to the wharf.

Mr. POWELL. As a man having to do with sanitary matters, what is your opinion regarding the effect of the boats discharging the sewage into the river? Is the discharging of that sewage into the river detrimental to health on your side?

Dr. MACAULEY. Undoubtedly.

Mr. MAGRATH. I would like to say, Mr. Chairman, that if Dr. Macauley as the health officer of a great town along the river here wishes to make any statement to the commission he may do so. He may have gotten the idea that he is here to ask questions. If he has anything to say on the subject, this is the time to say it.

Dr. MACAULEY. I do not know of anything special at this time. Something may later suggest itself to my mind.

Mr. TAWNEY. Can anyone here give us information as to the number of vessels passing up and down this river in front of Brockville? Is there any record that would give such information?

Dr. MACAULEY. I do not think we have any such record.

Mr. GARDNER. I suppose, Dr. Macauley, that you are willing to say that the tonnage passing up and down the river here is very large?

Dr. MACAULEY. Certainly there are a great many people passing up and down the river on the line of boats, the _Kingston_ and the _Toronto_, especially this season. Owing to the fact that the season has been a very hot one, the boats have been crowded all summer.

Mr. POWELL. I suppose the reports of the lock masters of the canals would give us some idea of the number of boats passing up and down.

Dr. MACAULEY. I do not think so, because a large portion of the travel comes from the train or from Brockville; but a large number of passengers would go only as far as Prescott. I think it would be only a fractional part would go to Montreal.

STATEMENT OF MR. G. H. BRYSON, CITY ENGINEER OF BROCKVILLE, ONTARIO.

Mr. GARDNER. Mr. Bryson, you are the city engineer of Brockville, are you?

Mr. BRYSON. I am.

Mr. GARDNER. How long have you held that position?

Mr. BRYSON. Four and a half years.

Mr. GARDNER. Have you with you plans of your sewerage system?

Mr. BRYSON. No; I did not bring any. They are on file with the commission’s original report of 1914.

Mr. GARDNER. Can you give us a general outline of the character of your sewerage system?

Mr. BRYSON. The town is divided into two systems. One system discharges into what is called the west-end division. The main sewerage area takes about three-fourths of the area of the town and discharges about 820 feet from the intake pipe. It starts with a 16-inch outlet and then follows up with an 8-inch outlet in the river. The original system was laid out to take only sanitary sewage, but for some reason that was abandoned. The west-end system is a 9-inch pipe, except the small piece of 8-inch cast-iron pipe running into the river. That discharges about half a mile above the intake pipe. It is practically all sanitary sewage.

Mr. GARDNER. What is the nature of the surface of the country there? Is it flat?

Mr. BRYSON. No; it is very hilly. We have really three watersheds in the town.

Mr. GARDNER. As an engineer, would it, in your judgment, be very difficult to put an intercepting sewer in there for the purpose of purifying the sewage?

Mr. BRYSON. Plans have been gotten out for intercepting all the west end sewage and bringing it into the main system.

Mr. MAGRATH. Have those plans been approved by the public health service?

Mr. BRYSON. No; they have never gone to them, but it is a recommendation from them that the sewage from the west end be pumped into the main sewerage system. That was one of the conditions contained in the original order, that the west end sewage be passed into the main sewerage system.

Mr. POWELL. What is the estimated cost of that work?.

Mr. BRYSON. About $10,000.

Mr. GARDNER. That was a suggestion for the purification of your sewage?

Mr. BRYSON. It was just simply to divert the sewage so it would go out below the intake.

Mr. GARDNER. You have never taken into consideration the purification of your sewage before it is discharged?

Mr. BRYSON. No; nothing has been done about that.

Mr. POWELL. What is the axis of this rotary area where you have the back flow?

Mr. BRYSON. I beg your pardon?

Mr. POWELL. There is a back flow on the Brockville side. What is the major axis, and what is the minor axis?

Mr. BRYSON. It flows west to about the Canadian Pacific Railway dock and then turns down the river.

Mr. POWELL. About how far is it from where it starts to flow up to the end of the curve?

Mr. BRYSON. It starts about half a mile below the town. I should think it is out about 800 feet. The intake is supposed to be across the present eddy.

Mr. POWELL. Just beyond it, near the margin.

Mr. BRYSON. Yes.

Mr. POWELL. During your time has the pollution increased very much?

Mr. BRYSON. It has increased with the population in the western end of the town.

Mr. POWELL. Have you ever made any estimate as to what the cost would be of sterilization by sedimentation or otherwise of the sewage?

Mr. BRYSON. No, sir.

Mr. MAGRATH. So far as I can gather, you have been the chief offender against yourself in the past.

Mr. BRYSON. I think so, Mr. Magrath.

Mr. GARDNER. Your concern has been chiefly in regard to your water supply?

Mr. BRYSON. It has been to protect ourselves.

Mr. GARDNER. And you have no complaint to make about the water being polluted in the stream above you?

Mr. BRYSON. No.

Mr. MIGNAULT. Are there any large towns below Brockville that would be polluted by your sewage?

Mr. BRYSON. Prescott is the only possible place that could be affected by it, I think.

Mr. POWELL. There is no surface sewage that passes into your western system?

Mr. BRYSON. There is very little; nothing to speak of.

Mr. POWELL. Does all the surface sewage in the lower system pass into your pipes?

Mr. BRYSON. It passes into other pipes now; but for the last four years we have been taking out such surface sewage as we could because we have been having very heavy floods in the lower pipes of the town.

Mr. POWELL. Could you avoid a pumping system in disposing of your sewage?

Mr. BRYSON. No; we have to pump. The location of a plant would be very difficult from the present point of discharge.

Mr. POWELL. Have you any idea from what elevation you would have to pump the sewage in order to dispose of it?

Mr. BRYSON. I think to get land we would have to go outside of the town limits entirely.

Mr. POWELL. But how high would you have to go?

Mr. BRYSON. About 90 feet.

Mr. POWELL. That would be quite expensive?

Mr. BRYSON. Yes. There is no available land in sight.

Mr. MAGRATH. You have no general statement that you wish to make regarding this situation, have you?

Mr. BRYSON. Dr. Macauley was asked about the pollution in the river. Last year I went out all over the lake taking samples and sent them to the provincial board of health. Every one showed contamination. We crossed the main channel and right over to the American side. We went up the river to Big Island.

Mr. GARDNER. Did that investigation cover the whole surface of the river from shore to shore?

Mr. BRYSON. We took samples every 400 feet right across.

Mr. POWELL. Have there ever been any complaints made by the lower communities on your side against the sewage?

Mr. BRYSON. No.

Mr. POWELL. You have never been threatened with any lawsuits?

Mr. BRYSON. No.

Mr. EVANSON. May I ask Mr. Bryson a question?

Mr. GARDNER. Certainly.

Mr. EVANSON. Mr. Bryson, in speaking of purifying the sewage of the town of Brockville you said it would have to be pumped for a considerable distance. Do not the sewers go down some of the principal streets of Brockville?

Mr. BRYSON. Yes.

Mr. EVANSON. Is it not possible that a plant could be built under ground beneath those streets to take care of the sewage?

Mr. BRYSON. I do not think so. I think we would have to spend too much money in rock excavation.

Mr. EVANSON. I know that Mr. Murray, of Toronto, suggested that system to me some years ago. He said it could be taken care of without pumping at all.

Mr. BRYSON. Our outlet is in rock now and it is below the level of the St. Lawrence.

Mr. POWELL. There is not much rise and fall of the St. Lawrence River here, is there?

Mr. BRYSON. No; not very much.

Mr. POWELL. About what is the range?

Mr. BRYSON. About 4 feet at Brockville.

Mr. POWELL. Is there much shallow water on the Brockville side?

Mr. BRYSON. Not along the main water front. It is only along the west end that it begins to get shallow. There is a shoal over there.

Mr. POWELL. Is there an area there of some acres of shallow water?

Mr. BRYSON. Yes.

Mr. POWELL. Could you not dike it off? Or would that be too expensive?

Mr. BRYSON. Yes; it would be too expensive.

Mr. GARDNER. Is there anyone else from Brockville who wishes to be heard?

Mr. WRIGHT. Possibly we might hear from the chairman of the water commission, if the question of filtration is of any interest to this commission.

Mr. GARDNER. This commission is not so much concerned about the purification of your water supply as about the purification of your sewage.

Mr. WRIGHT. I understand that. The point we wish to establish is that so far as our experience goes we have not been able to find pure water in the river irrespective of any pollution that comes from the town of Brockville. While no doubt there is pollution from the sewage in the town of Brockville, at the same time in all our experience with the river we have been unable to find pure water in the neighborhood of the town, either above or below the sewage outlet. Therefore, we have come to the conclusion that the river is polluted irrespective of our sewage.

Mr. MAGRATH. Do you know of any community treating the sewage above you?

Mr. WRIGHT. No, sir.

Mr. GARDNER. The commission would be glad to hear from the chairman of the water commission.

STATEMENT OF MR. W. H. KYLE, CHAIRMAN OF THE PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION OF BROCKVILLE, ONTARIO.

Mr. KYLE. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen: We had tests made of the water above the town, away above any contamination from our sewage, and I believe to-day if we could get pure water above Brockville we could put a pumping plant up there.

Mr. MAGRATH. And treat your sewage so as to leave the people below you in the same position?

Mr. KYLE. We are in the position that we take that as an international question, and there would be no use of their treating it unless it is made general. The water is polluted also from the big insane asylum there. That will have to be taken into consideration when the question of the town of Brockville is considered.

Mr. GARDNER. Where is that located, in reference to your city?

Mr. KYLE. It is about a mile below our city. I believe we can not get any pure water in the river at the present time and that we shall have to treat our sewage and also put in a filtration plant. I believe that the trouble in our water is caused by shipping. I remember passing one of those big liners in a motor boat one day. I do not know what sort of an apparatus they had, but they dumped the material, and everybody immediately grabbed their handkerchiefs and held their noses until they got by. I believe that has a great deal to do with the contamination of the water. Many of the summer residents also wrap their garbage in paper and throw it in the river.

Mr. GARDNER. That is increasing in amount?

Mr. KYLE. Every year.

Mr. MIGNAULT. Have you any idea as to the summer population above Brockville?

Mr. KYLE. Practically all the islands are occupied now, as well as the shores, by summer residents, and at Alexandria Bay there are thousands and thousands of people every day. I think we are getting more contamination from the vicinity of Alexandria Bay than we are perhaps from Gananoque.

Mr. MIGNAULT. How far are you from Alexandria Bay?

Mr. KYLE. About 22 miles.

Mr. MIGNAULT. How far are you from Gananoque?

Mr. KYLE. About 30 miles. I think probably in another year we will filter our water. I think the water should be filtered, no matter whether the sewage is treated or not.

Mr. MIGNAULT. I suppose the point you make, Mr. Kyle, is that unless all communities treat their sewage, the treatment of sewage at Brockville would not help you?

Mr. KYLE. It would not affect us and would not affect the other towns. They would still have to chlorinate.

Mr. MIGNAULT. In other words, the water as it comes down from Brockville is already polluted.

Mr. KYLE. Yes.

Mr. MIGNAULT. And I suppose, inasmuch as the summer population on the islands is increasing, you could hardly expect that any system of treatment of sewage or garbage going into the river could be ever attempted?

Mr. KYLE. I do not know just how they would get after them. But they would have to burn the garbage and treat their sewage. It is a serious question for the municipalities. They have all issued debentures for putting in plants for the disposal of the sewage, I suppose with the permission of the Government. Some towns can do it very easily, but in our town it would be a very serious question.

Mr. MIGNAULT. I understand that no studies have been made as to sewage treatment in Brockville.

Mr. KYLE. Well, not to any great extent. The engineers have informed us that it would be a very expensive undertaking on account of the rocky formation and the hilly ground on which we are located.

Mr. POWELL. As I understand you, your personal view is that there should be a general prevention of the deposit into the river of raw sewage?

Mr. KYLE. Yes; it is my view that it should be prevented by both the United States and Canada.

Mr. POWELL. You think it should be prevented by all concerned?

Mr. KYLE. Yes; by all concerned.

Mr. POWELL. All communities should be prohibited from depositing raw sewage into the river.

Mr. KYLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. MIGNAULT. You would still have trouble from the campers on the islands, even if the communities treated their sewage?

Mr. KYLE. Yes.

Mr. GARDNER. And from navigation also?

Mr. KYLE. Yes, sir; also from navigation.

Mr. POWELL. You are in favor of that as applying to the whole community, but you think that it would be of no avail for any particular community to attempt purification because of the communities above?

Mr. KYLE. Yes, sir; because the boats would still contaminate the water.

Mr. POWELL. Have you ever brought to the notice of the steamboat association the pollution of the waters of the river through the boats?

Mr. KYLE. Only by ordering them away from our docks. We have a dock at the pumping station where the boats sometimes land, and we have refused to allow them to land; but that applies more to our old intake pipe than to the present one.

Mr. POWELL. But the fact remains that their presence there has the effect of polluting the water?

Mr. KYLE. We simply ordered them away as a precaution.

Mr. POWELL. Was it a mere precautionary measure or was it because they were a source of pollution?

Mr. KYLE. At that time we believed they were stirring up the water, and the diver told us that the bottom was all soft stuff and it would be naturally stirred up and go into the intake pipe. They can not do that now. There is no question but what our water with the new intake pipe is very much better than we got before.

Mr. POWELL. Then, what is the ground of your complaint? Is it against the steamboats in that they stir up the deposit at the bottom of the river, or that they add to the pollution?

Mr. KYLE. At the present time they add to the pollution. I do not think they stir it up to any great extent.

Mr. POWELL. And you believe that is a real source of danger?

Mr. KYLE. Yes.

Mr. MAGRATH. Do you think that the passenger traffic is of sufficient size to be a danger?

Mr. KYLE. I do. I think a thousand people coming out on a boat would produce pollution in the river.

Mr. GARDNER. Have you any idea of the number of people that passed up and down the river in boats during a season within the past two years?

Mr. KYLE. The excursion steamer _Thousand Islander_ goes out with a thousand people. It very seldom goes farther than Alexandria Bay, which is about 28 miles from Brockville.

Mr. POWELL. How many trips does she make a week?

Mr. KYLE. She makes a trip every day, practically; but that is only one of the boats.

Mr. GARDNER. Do you think that on an average a thousand people a day pass up and down the river during the period of navigation?

Mr. KYLE. For the total number of boats; yes, sir; very many more. I think that around Alexandria Bay there are two or three thousand people, or more, perhaps, every day, because the boats from Kingston run in there.

Mr. Dewey has just informed me that he thinks there would be 30,000 people during the day within 30 miles of Brockville on passenger steamers.

Mr. GARDNER. That would have reference to the whole navigation season?

Mr. DEWEY. Yes; and during July and August I think it would be a very conservative estimate to say that there would be 35,000 people on steamers every day.

Mr. POWELL. About how many freight steamers pass up and down daily?

Mr. DEWEY. I could not say. There is a continuous line of them. The majority of the boats that go through the Welland Canal, freight boats, that pass down the river, pass by here.

Mr. GARDNER. I do not suppose you have any means of knowing what the average river population would be during the entire navigation season?

Mr. DEWEY. No, sir.

Mr. GARDNER. It would fall off greatly, of course, after what you might term the vacation season?

Mr. DEWEY. My estimate of the number of people, tourists, would be from the regular line of boats and the excursion steamers passing.

Mr. GARDNER. How late do these steamers run on the river here?

Mr. DEWEY. Until the middle of September.

Mr. MIGNAULT. Can you give us an idea as to the population on the islands?

Mr. DEWEY. On the islands in the immediate vicinity of Brockville there are about 1,500 people.

Mr. MAGRATH. You say Brockville people?

Mr. DEWEY. Probably Brockville people.

Mr. MIGNAULT. But from elsewhere than Brockville, what would the total be?

Mr. DEWEY. The number of nonresidents of Brockville that would be in the vicinity of Brockville would not be very large.

Mr. MIGNAULT. I am referring to the population that might affect the water flowing past Brockville.

Mr. DEWEY. There would not be any substantial increase there, but I should think it would be safe to say that there would be anywhere from 5,000 to 10,000 people in the immediate vicinity of Alexandria Bay and Clayton during the summer months.

Mr. POWELL. I was told that on one island alone there were pretty nearly 10,000 people as a floating population.

Mr. DEWEY. Yes; that is on Thousand Island Park.

Mr. POWELL. You will find the floating population of Thousand Islands and Alexandria Bay to be pretty close to 50,000.

Mr. DEWEY. Yes; but these would be permanent for the summer. There is practically none in the immediate vicinity of Brockville occupied by summer cottages.

Mr. POWELL. Taking the region that we have loosely called the Thousand Island region, what would be the floating population of those islands and the vicinity on the main land?

Mr. KYLE. That is difficult to say because they are coming in by the thousand every day and staying a day and then leaving. I believe 100,000 a day would be a conservative estimate for the islands and the immediate shores.

Mr. POWELL. Mr. Dallyn, did the bacteriological examinations that were made on the river here cover the season when the floating population was present?