Part 3

In regard to that same matter, that is covered very thoroughly by the report of an investigation in reference to Cincinnati by Harrison P. Eddy, consulting engineer at Boston. He brought out the fact that the sewage of Pittsburgh, Liverpool, and all the cities above Cincinnati was thrown into the Ohio River, and that all those cities which took their water from the Ohio River found it necessary to treat it before using for domestic purposes, and the cities below Cincinnati would find that treatment also necessary before the water was used, and therefore he felt--and his report bears out his feeling--that a sewage-treatment plant for Cincinnati was at that time unnecessary, inasmuch as the waters of the Ohio River were sufficient to dilute the sewage which the city of Cincinnati threw into the Ohio River to such an extent that it was not a nuisance and did not give forth any bad odors. If it is true of Cincinnati, it is a thousand times more true of Niagara Falls, a city of 50,000 people, and the Niagara River, whose flow is perhaps five or six times the dry-weather flow of the Ohio River; and not only that, but through the gorge and rapids the tendency is to very thoroughly mix the sewage and the water of Niagara River to such an extent that at no time would there be any bad odor coming off from the water. I had just two points to make: One is that the saddling of the cost of this treatment plant, something like $800,000, on the municipality of Niagara Falls would be a hardship on the people, and the maintenance of that plant would be an additional cost to the city, and I feel, as far as the city of Niagara Falls is concerned, that city being the last city on the line, it ought to be the last city that would be required by the United States Government to treat its waters, and especially so on account of the very thorough mixing of the sewage that comes from the Niagara Falls in the Niagara River. There is one more point in that same connection: I believe the chemical plants in Niagara Falls are discharging into the sewers, which tends to destroy the bacteria which normally would exist.

Mr. POWELL. Do you purify your water in the city?

Mr. CARR. Yes. We were disgraced by having the highest typhoid death rate in the United States. At that time our water was not being treated.

STATEMENT OF MR. R. L. SEELBACH, OF BUFFALO, N. Y.

Mr. SEELBACH. I would like to ascertain if it is mandatory on the city to accept any plan the commission recommends?

Mr. TAWNEY. It would be mandatory if the two Governments, by treaty, agreed to the adoption of the recommendation; but as far as the commission’s recommendation is concerned it is not mandatory. If the commission recommends certain remedies, and the two Governments, by convention or treaty, adopt the recommendation, it becomes the supreme law and would be mandatory upon the municipalities.

Mr. SEELBACH. If it could be shown to the commission in a reasonable time that a certain system would be more economical and hygienically superior to the proposition of the commission, would that be accepted?

Mr. TAWNEY. You appeared before the commission in 1914?

Mr. SEELBACH. Yes.

Mr. TAWNEY. And presented a plan of treatment?

Mr. SEELBACH. It was more upon the garbage proposition; but I have taken up this matter and submitted a plan. I have a scheme to burn the sludge.

Mr. GARDNER. The commission is here at this time for the discussion of the plans submitted by our engineer, as to whether or not they are acceptable; if not, what particular objection these different municipalities have to the plans as submitted in this report, and we can not take up anything that is purely outside of that question.

Mr. SEELBACH. I submitted my proposition to you people, and I never heard anything about it.

Mr. TAWNEY. I can say to you that it was disposed of as not coming within the purview of our investigation.

Mr. SEELBACH. I would like to know the facts in connection with that.

Mr. TAWNEY. I do not think it was formally disposed of, but that was the consensus of opinion it did not fall within the scope of the investigation.

Mr. SEELBACH. If I can show to the city of Buffalo that my system is more hygienic and more economical, would it have your approval?

Mr. GARDNER. I have no doubt it might have the approval of the commission informally, but I doubt whether they could take it up properly and consider it under the reference.

Mr. SEELBACH. But the city of Buffalo?

Mr. GARDNER. They can do as they please.

Mr. POWELL. Have you laid your scheme before the city authorities?

Mr. SEELBACH. Not as yet; I would like to.

Mr. GARDNER. You have not as many men to deal with as you had years ago.

Mr. SEELBACH. If the commissioners could find my statement there, I would like to make a correction.

Mr. TAWNEY. We have not it with us. You can address the secretary at Washington, or see him here personally, and give him any corrections you want to make.

Mr. GARDNER. I was going to make the suggestion that you might be allowed to make your correction at this time, if you care to. But we have not your statement here.

Mr. SEELBACH. I can not make it without the statement before me.

Mr. GARDNER. We do not seem to be getting anywhere; we are traveling around in a circle. I submit this proposition to you--whether or not we could take a recess, and your engineers or your representative men and our engineers spend the remainder of the day in going over this report, to see whether or not you can not come in here to-morrow with some tentative agreement at least as to what your differences are, whether they are irreconcilable, or what may be the prospect of coming to some understanding with each other. I want to repeat again that, under the terms of the reference, this commission has nothing whatever to do with the supplying of pure water to any of these municipalities. The question referred to us is to determine whether or not these boundary waters were polluted to the injury of health and property on the other side of the line, and if they were--and it has been clearly demonstrated that they were--what remedy we would advise and submit to the two Governments for their adoption. We are anxious to have the cooperation of the people here in Buffalo and elsewhere to work out a plan possibly that will answer the terms of the reference and make it as easy as possible for the people interested here and elsewhere. That is what we are here for. The commission could sit down in its offices in Washington or Ottawa and develop a plan, but we want to consider you people here; we want to work with you to devise a scheme that will be best for you and acceptable to the Governments at the least possible cost. That is my idea of the situation in a nutshell.

Mr. POWELL. I would suggest that Mr. Seelbach prepare a typewritten brief and give a copy to each member of the commission. If his idea is good, I, for one, would like to take advantage of it and have it considered, but you understand we can not adequately consider any scientific scheme here by simply an oral statement. You had better typewrite your brief and submit it.

Mr. SEELBACH. I can submit it. How long will you remain here?

Mr. GARDNER. We can remain here two or three days.

Mr. POWELL. And if it is not ready you could send copies to the Washington or Ottawa offices.

Prof. PHELPS. I would like to suggest that we have not heard from all the officials of Buffalo. Capt. Norton looks as though he had something to say, and it might be well to fill in time hearing what these people have to say.

STATEMENT OF CAPT. GEORGE H. NORTON, CITY ENGINEER, OF BUFFALO.

Capt. NORTON. I have had the honor of appearing before you several times in this matter, and at the earlier hearings I believe that you asked the city of Buffalo if we had any plan to suggest at that time, and, as city engineer, I said to you that I thought the ordinary procedure would be for you to hear the outline of such results as you expected should be accomplished, and I believe that was the opinion and advice of your sanitary consulting engineer--that the commission should outline a tentative policy and submit such to the city, and I am very much pleased that that has been done in the excellent way in which it has been done. In speaking of the plan itself as worked out in detail by Mr. Tolles and Prof. Phelps and your commission, the general plan for Buffalo for the collection of its sewage has followed the idea which the city has had as the probable solution, accepting the suggestion of your Mr. Tolles, which looks very reasonable--that we divert certain of our sewage from the easterly side of the city to the southern outlet instead of our middle outlet in Niagara River. That is a matter which can only be determined, as to its extent and advisability by making detailed plans both ways. That is a matter which will require careful engineering estimate. I believe Mr. Tolles has gone through that to some extent, but I do not think to the extent of the estimate of the parallel construction. That, then, would bring us down to the question of the extent of treatment, if such is to be undertaken. The suggestion which I have made heretofore was somewhat in parallel with what Mr. Carr has suggested, that there is one limiting condition of pollution in the Niagara River which, I believe, is not thoroughly covered by the examination of the experts as to the condition of pollution, and that was whether or not the pollution from surface drainage at times did not materially exceed the proposed limitation, that the conditions here at times make this river less desirable by reason of surface pollution; then we have a limiting factor in there which we have not met in the tentative plans proposed by the consulting engineers, and I think it should be given consideration in this study; that is, that you have at times conditions from surface drainage pollution which will exceed the limitation set up by sanitary engineers as one to be worked to in treatment of it. I think the engineers will agree that if you have that condition existing 10 or 15 days a year, which is detrimental to the citizens, it is not the average condition, but should be given consideration.

Mr. GARDNER. Is there any material increase in the sources of pollution?

Capt. NORTON. It would be in keeping with the normal population of the community. It is different here and on the other side of the river. I believe the normal rate of increase of pollution over there is not as great as that of the cities. The extent of this treatment as recommended, I would say, would be rather more than I would have in mind for the city of Buffalo as being a solution of the problem, for this reason, that the report of the sanitary expert, which established a condition of water which might not impose an undue burden on the water-filtration plant, is based on the average pollution of the entire cross-section, and I should think that was a very reasonable solution for the smaller stream, but the question comes with the larger stream, where we can get a thread of water which is materially less polluted than the average, as to whether that should be given material consideration in a stream as large as this; that, instead of putting our basis of 500 B. coli per cubic centimeter over the whole cross section of the river, whether we should not take that for the whole section of the river, which is liable to furnish variable water to the various municipalities along the stream, allowing for all contingencies in the way of change of currents at various times. These are broad problems which can only be settled by the highest advice, and it would be well for the city to have that advice and go over these two or three different points before accepting in toto that extent to which the clarification or purification should be considered.

Mr. GARDNER. That is what the commission did. They advocated the employment of the best sanitary engineers.

Mr. TAWNEY. Besides the plan you have been speaking of, what would you say as to whether or not the commission would be justified in recommending to the two Governments that no raw sewage be deposited in any of the boundary waters?

Capt. NORTON. I believe that principle is correct, and that there should be some sewage treatment.

Mr. TAWNEY. You do not think these international waters should be used for discharging raw sewage from the cities bordering on them?

Capt. NORTON. No; I do not; and that is the consensus of sanitary opinion at the present time--that such a thing should not be allowed. With regard to Mr. Perkins’s suggestion as to furnishing the water supply along the Niagara frontier, I have a reference to my first suggestion which I made to you when the matter was first submitted to the city, which you will find in the hearings of the International Joint Commission, in the document of 1915, on pages 41, 43, et seq., when that matter was discussed on behalf of the city as a possible solution. I am not in a position to speak as to whether the city of Buffalo would want to insist on that as a solution. It is one of the probable and reasonable solutions of the whole problem, but I suppose we are dependent upon your action in covering the conditions as they exist at large along the waterways. You must make some reasonable recommendation that will cover the whole situation, and if you do that what your attitude would be in regard to making an exception here would be an open question. There are many problems here, and I do not think the city has had a chance to give it detailed study. If they wish to go into this and arrive at a reasonable solution it might be well for the city to have some expert advice and go over the matters in detail.

Mr. TAWNEY. Has the city of Buffalo in the last year been making any study of this problem independent of the study made by the sanitary engineers of the commission?

Capt. NORTON. No, sir.

Mr. TAWNEY. I did not know whether Buffalo had or not.

Capt. NORTON. No.

Mr. TAWNEY. Do you think the city council or commission, whichever it is, will act upon your advice and take steps to obtain expert advice with respect to the modification which you suggested in regard to the plan proposed by our sanitary engineers?

Capt. NORTON. I think the council can answer better themselves.

STATEMENT OF MR. CHARLES B. HILL, COMMISSIONER OF FINANCE AND COUNCILMAN, OF BUFFALO.

Mr. HILL. I might take the liberty of speaking for the new council in that regard, and in answer I would say that we have a very high regard for our engineering department, and I have no doubt the council would follow the advice of the department in that respect. Of course, I am not in a position to speak authoritatively as to the policy of the new council.

Mr. TAWNEY. My reason for asking is this: We have had this matter under consideration now for about three years, and if the city of Buffalo contemplated in the near future taking up the study of the problem along the line suggested by Capt. Norton, the commission might hereafter delay final report until we had the judgment and advice or the conclusions of your city. It is not the desire of the commission to arbitrarily make recommendations without taking into consideration the wishes and the desires of the various communities affected. We want to give them a reasonable time.

Mr. HILL. I think the council feels that it is its duty to cooperate in every way with this commission and to take this matter under advisement in the way that Capt. Norton suggests. For myself--and I am in the same position as the other commissioners--I may say we took office only the 1st of January. This matter came to our attention only when the notice came in, and we have had time but for one informal discussion with the engineering department, so that, as a representative body, we are unable at this time, as I feel, to do justice to the matter at this hearing. I agree with the suggestion of the commission, and I think that that is the disposition that ought to be made of the matter, and give us time to take the matter up, which we will do.

Mr. TAWNEY. Speaking for myself, we want the cooperation of the two large cities on our side of the line in working out this problem, so that when it is worked out and embodied in our recommendation it will reasonably meet the approval of the people of these two great municipalities; and in that case it would be comparatively easy for the two Governments to follow the recommendations and make the necessary provisions. In that case our work will not be futile, otherwise it might go for naught. For that reason we want the cooperation of both cities.

Mr. HILL. Absolutely right, and I take the liberty of speaking for the council, and I say we are of a mind to give that cooperation, and we will certainly do it.

Mr. GARDNER. Can you give us approximately the time you will require to consider it?

Mr. HILL. You all know how such matters go.

Mr. POWELL. Or, rather, don’t go.

Mr. HILL. I can say the matter will not be neglected.

Mr. POWELL. Have you done anything since you got the report in the way of considering the recommendations, or having them considered?

Mr. HILL. We had one meeting and one discussion with Capt. Norton occupying over two hours, perhaps.

Mr. POWELL. Will you really take it up seriously?

Mr. HILL. We will, because we appreciate the situation.

Mr. POWELL. This thing has been hanging three years.

STATEMENT OF DR. FRANCIS E. FRONCZAK, HEALTH OFFICER OF BUFFALO.

Dr. FRONCZAK. First of all, I want to congratulate the commission and engineers on the excellent report published in the document issued last March. It shows a most thorough study, and also shows that, notwithstanding statements made this morning, there is greater contamination below than above--at least more contamination. But there is one thing forgotten by the engineers in this report apparently that Capt. Norton has mentioned--that the surface drainage is not considered. I do not believe any city is justified in turning raw sewage into any stream of that kind. But even if we do treat sewage that way, we will still have an immense amount of surface drainage from contaminated streams.

Mr. POWELL. You mean outside of the cities?

Dr. FRONCZAK. No, not outside; and that surface drainage will have to be considered all the time; in other words, no matter what is done about the disposal of sewage, you still must purify the water after it gets to the mains for drinking purposes. In Buffalo we have most excellent results; and I want to place in the record of the commission the fact that the use of chlorine gas has considerably reduced the number of typhoid cases in Buffalo. Last year, 1915, shows that, notwithstanding the fact that Buffalo was larger and more populous than ever before, we had fewer cases of typhoid fever than ever before in the history of the department of health. We had fewer deaths from typhoid in Buffalo last year than at any time in the history of the department. We had this year, from January 1 to June 20, only 61 cases of typhoid in Buffalo, and only 16 deaths, which is so low that the United States Government, the New York State department of health, and the scientific societies have complimented the city on the results attained, and this was due to the purification of the water supply by chlorine gas; and that is a thing that must be considered all the time on the question of pollution of these streams, not only the removal of the solids, the sterilization, or the removal of as much pollution as is possible, but the removal of danger of contamination from surface drainage. Incidentally I might state that since August, 1914, when the chlorine gas was used in Buffalo, the total number of bacteria, which, I believe, have run into thousands day after day in Buffalo, have fallen as low as four per hundred centimeters; and while in former years we had colon bacilli in the water, since 1914 to date only on one single day did we find colon bacilli. So that shows conclusively that the use of chlorine gas, the way we are using it, renders the water more safe, and that this will have to be considered in connection with the pollution of these streams.

Mr. TAWNEY. When did you commence the use of chlorine gas?

Dr. FRONCZAK. August, 1914.

Mr. TAWNEY. Two years?

Dr. FRONCZAK. Yes; only on one single day in all this time did we find colon bacilli where we formerly found it repeatedly, and the death rate of Buffalo for typhoid fever to-day is below 10 per 100,000 population. The fall has been so steady the last five years, and especially within two years, that the State department of health sent congratulations to the mayor of Buffalo and to the department.

Mr. POWELL. What was your death rate before?

Dr. FRONCZAK. Seventeen, 19, 25; last year it was below 10. It is growing less all the time, and Buffalo is a growing city.

Mr. TAWNEY. Were there any other changes made in your system to which any part of this could be attributed?

Dr. FRONCZAK. Yes; the new tunnel. With the construction of the tunnel we found a difference, and the fly exterminator contributed some. But the use of chlorine gas is the best investment Buffalo has made for the reduction of death rate that I know of.

Capt. NORTON. We started using water from the new intake in January, 1912, but it was not used entirely. There was some water used from the old intake. For 1912, 1913, and 1914 the death rate was 13½ per 100,000, and for the 10 years previous to the opening of the new intake it was 24½. So that we had a reduction prior to the introduction of chlorine gas of 12 per 100,000, and last year it was 10, and this year it is below that.

Mr. TAWNEY. You can not attribute the favorable result entirely to the use of chlorine gas?