Part 21

Mr. PATERSON. Yes; it dries at a very low temperature. Another difficulty with the drying is that this sewage cake is so extremely nonconductive. You could heat it up to a temperature in the retort of 2,000 F., a piece the size of your fist, and the center will come out exactly as you put it in the retort. It will retain the moisture still, almost in the same condition as it went in, after receiving that high temperature for six hours.

Mr. TAWNEY. Has the development of this system proceeded beyond the experimental stage, or has it yet reached the commercial stage?

Mr. PATERSON. Yes, sir; it has reached the commercial stage. You have to take into consideration that the conditions in Canada and in the United States are considerably different from what they are in Great Britain. Great Britain is a smaller country, thickly populated, and I would want to point out that isolated towns would not have the same facility of working that we have here. Take a town like Rochester, and Buffalo, the next town, is 70 or 80 miles away. A town like Indianapolis, with a population of 300,000, has around it many towns of 20,000 or 25,000 people which radiate out from that center, and it would mean an absolutely sure profitable proposition. In other towns, like in Ontario, where they are isolated, you could not expect to make as large profits as in these well-situated towns.

Mr. POWELL. What is the highest percentage of net profit on capital expenditure? Maybe you do not wish to disclose that.

Mr. PATERSON. I do not think that would be wise at the present stage. Before answering that, I would like to know the conditions in this country better. One might make a statement as to that and then fall down lamentably on it after he understood the conditions.

Mr. TAWNEY. Do you think that a city of 25,000 inhabitants could install a plant of this kind for the disposal of sewage at a profit, or without a loss?

Mr. PATERSON. And using the by-product as a fertilizer?

Mr. TAWNEY. Yes.

Mr. PATERSON. If a town is situated like Hamilton, in Ontario, with respect to a large city like Toronto, yes. But not to put up a by-product plant for itself. It certainly could make a profit. I think Mr. Hatton bears me out in that, that there is almost an unlimited demand for this material at about $15 or $20 a ton in America.

Mr. MIGNAULT. I think Mr. Hatton stated that there was a very small percentage of fat in the sewage of Milwaukee. I would like to know whether this system can be applied anywhere, or does it depend on the nature of the sewage?

Mr. PATERSON. In England we take out the fats first in any case, but where it is used for fertilizing alone, Mr. Hatton is quite correct in what he says. In England, where we are dealing with large tonnages and taking out the other by-products, yes, it pays. Generally speaking, small towns of 25,000 people, unless they are well situated with relation to larger towns, the only way they can make a profit, so far as I know, is by drying the product and selling it as fertilizer, and that they can do at a very moderate cost. A drying plant will not cost more than $2,500, and the operating expenses are practically all done with the staff they have; that is, for a small city.

Mr. GARDNER. I wish, Mr. Paterson, on behalf of the commission, to express to you their thanks, and to say how much we appreciate that you have come before us from Indianapolis on our invitation and given us the valuable information which you have.

Mr. PATERSON. We professional chemists look upon it that we should render your commission the most useful information which we have in our possession, and I am sure we are all glad to do so. If I can be of any further assistance to the commission, I shall be glad.

Mr. GARDNER. We appreciate that.

Mr. PATERSON. If I can give you further information, I shall be only too pleased to do so.

Mr. TAWNEY. Mr. Paterson stated at the beginning of his statement that he had a full report on this matter on its way from England, or that he expected one before long. I would suggest that when he receives that report he should forward it to the commission, with any additional data that he wishes to submit to us. I am sure we would appreciate it.

Mr. PATERSON. I shall be very pleased to do so.

STATEMENT OF DR. A. W. GOODALE, OF THOUSAND ISLAND PARK.

Mr. GARDNER. What is your position at Thousand Island Park, Dr. Goodale?

Dr. GOODALE. I am the secretary of the association and health officer. I have held those positions for several years. We received a notice from this commission from Washington to appear here. However, we have nothing to ask of you.

Mr. GARDNER. What are your particular duties as health officer?

Dr. GOODALE. I have had charge of putting down all the sewers, looking after our water, getting rid of our closets, and running them by water instead of having outdoor closets.

Mr. GARDNER. Have you a system of sewage disposal there?

Dr. GOODALE. We have.

Mr. GARDNER. What is your outlet?

Dr. GOODALE. Our outlet is the St. Lawrence River. We have a sewer that runs through the center of the park to the river. Then each street has a sewer that runs into the main sewer, and through that into the river below where we take our water.

Mr. GARDNER. What is your permanent population?

Dr. GOODALE. We haven’t any. I suppose there are a dozen families living there; not over that.

Mr. GARDNER. What is the population during the vacation season?

Dr. GOODALE. We have a transient population there of about 10,000 tourists. They are there from the 1st of July until about the middle of September.

Mr. GARDNER. That would include those arriving and departing day by day?

Dr. GOODALE. Yes, sir; but we have about 500 cottages. About 105 cottages and our principal hotel and stores were burned about two years ago. They were owned by the association.

Mr. GARDNER. How near the boundary line is Thousand Island Park?

Dr. GOODALE. It is about 6 miles across, and we are about in the center.

Mr. GARDNER. About how far is the border of the island from what you might term the ship canal--the channel where the navigation goes up and down the river?

Dr. GOODALE. About half a mile. The main channel, I think, is on the American side.

Mr. GARDNER. Where is the outlet of your sewers with respect to that ship channel?

Dr. GOODALE. It goes out pretty near the channel.

Mr. GARDNER. You do not treat your sewage at all, do you?

Dr. GOODALE. No, sir. If I may be allowed to say it without being asked, I would state that we have the healthiest people that I know of anywhere around. We have no typhoid fever; we have no diphtheria, scarlet fever, or any of the contagious diseases. We are now suffering under the misfortune of having to quarantine people in order to keep out infantile paralysis from New York and other places south of us.

Mr. GARDNER. Do you think you contribute anything to the good health of those farther down the river?

Dr. GOODALE. No, sir; I do not think we do; that is, nothing except in the way of pure water.

Mr. GARDNER. You think you have the advantage of them in obtaining pure water.

Dr. GOODALE. Well, we have the same advantage that Detroit and Niagara Falls and those places above us have of us. We take their pollution, if there is any.

Mr. GARDNER. The two cases are hardly parallel. You are right at the mouth of a big lake.

Dr. GOODALE. Well, virtually we are. I think where the big lakes empty in is up about Cape Vincent and Kingston.

Mr. GARDNER. As a matter of fact, before getting up into the lake the only town above you of any considerable size that sends sewage down to you is Clayton, is it not?

Dr. GOODALE. Clayton and Cape Vincent.

Mr. GARDNER. Have you ever considered any plans or schemes for purification of sewage?

Dr. GOODALE. We have had schemes suggested to us with which I am not familiar that we have considered not to be feasible, on account of our being situated in such a way that the water goes in both directions at Thousand Island Park. Part of it goes into the Canadian channel and part into the American channel. We have considered schemes of treating the sewage there, and it has always been so expensive that we could not afford to do it if it had been desirable.

Mr. GARDNER. That, then, has been the only reason why you have not formulated plans for the purification of sewage, the matter of expense?

Dr. GOODALE. The matter of expense and the fact that we have not considered that it was necessary so far as we are concerned.

Mr. GARDNER. But you have recognized it as a pending evil?

Dr. GOODALE. Yes, sir; we have not dodged that. It is an evil that has got to be done away with. However, we have not suffered with it at all. We have about 15 or 20 very good wells from which we obtain drinking water.

Mr. GARDNER. Are they artesian wells?

Dr. GOODALE. No, sir; we pump the water, and sometimes a hundred families get water from one well.

Mr. GARDNER. You do that, I suppose, because you think you get better water from your wells than you do from the river?

Dr. GOODALE. Well, many have had typhoid fever in Clayton and many of the residents there have felt afraid to use the St. Lawrence River water. But I do not think it is very bad. I talked with some boatmen coming down on the _Island Belle_. They have been running the _Island Belle_ for 20 years. They say they do not want any better water. I asked them where they got their water, whether they got it at Clayton or Thousand Island Park, and they said no; that they got it out in the center of the stream.

Mr. GARDNER. You have quite a good deal of navigation going to and from the island?

Dr. GOODALE. Yes, sir; there are a great many boats landing there every day.

Mr. POWELL. Have you any idea of how much of a floating population there is in the whole region, the mainland and the islands?

Dr. GOODALE. Well, it would be a guess. Do you mean during the summer while the tourists are there?

Mr. POWELL. Yes.

Dr. GOODALE. I should think 50,000.

Mr. POWELL. I was there before the big hotel was burned and on that one island alone for a week or so they had a population of over 10,000.

Dr. GOODALE. At Thousand Island Park we have a population of nearly 10,000 at this minute.

Mr. POWELL. You think a fair estimate of the total population would be 50,000?

Dr. GOODALE. Yes, sir. Of course, it is all guesswork. I have no means of knowing.

Mr. POWELL. You never took a poll or made a census?

Dr. GOODALE. No; I have been looking after sewers and sick people.

Mr. POWELL. What do you do with the excreta or raw sewage?

Dr. GOODALE. Do you mean our garbage?

Mr. POWELL. No; the excreta from the inhabitants.

Dr. GOODALE. From the water-closets or toilets?

Mr. POWELL. Yes.

Dr. GOODALE. We dump it into the river. It goes down through the main sewer.

Mr. POWELL. Do you burn your garbage?

Dr. GOODALE. Yes, sir.

Mr. POWELL. You burn the least nocuous?

Dr. GOODALE. Well, we could not very well burn the sewage. We burn the garbage; that is, it is emptied every day. We have a man remove it every day. It is taken away and each cottage pays a certain amount for its removal. We have nothing at Thousand Island Park to breed disease but what we dispose of.

I have no apology to make for anything that we do that injures our neighbors, because we really have not been looking out for that. We would be very glad to if we were able. The last fire we had damaged us about $250,000 to $300,000, so you will realize that we have not much money to spare. We have the healthiest place that I know of anywhere in the United States or Canada. Thousand Island Park is really an international park. We have a tabernacle in which we can seat about 3,000 people. We would be very glad to cooperate with this commission, or with anybody else, for the benefit of the St. Lawrence River, but we are too poor to do it just now. I did not come here to ask for anything, but to simply state to you that we are doing everything we can for the protection of the health of the people who visit us and of the people who go up and down the river. I would like to ask whether or not this commission is appointed from Washington?

Mr. GARDNER. It is appointed by both Governments. The commission was brought into existence by treaty between Great Britain and the United States, and, among other things, they agreed in that treaty that they would not permit the pollution of the boundary waters to the injury of property or health on either side. Now, the two Governments referred the question to this commission to ascertain whether or not the terms of the treaty were being violated, and if the waters were being polluted in contravention of the treaty. The commission put bacteriologists at work, and they have demonstrated beyond any question that the waters are being grossly polluted in places in violation of the treaty. The Governments then asked this commission to determine the remedy. That is what the commission is at work upon at the present time, to devise a remedy for this wholesale pollution that has been going on indiscriminately all up and down the boundary waters. The fact that any one community has been able to get pure water and avoid sickness does not change the matter at all; if they are dumping their sewage into the boundary water it is the duty of this commission to ascertain the facts and report them to the Governments. If the Governments accept the remedies that the commission finally submits to them for adoption there will not, I apprehend, be any discrimination between communities; they will all be treated alike.

Dr. GOODALE. As I understand it this commission has nothing to consider in regard to the purity or impurity of the St. Lawrence River.

Mr. GARDNER. Yes; the commission have to determine whether or not the waters are being polluted in contravention of the treaty; and, if so, what is the remedy. But the two countries have agreed that the waters shall not be polluted to the injury of health or property on the other side.

Dr. GOODALE. Well, what are they going to do if it is?

Mr. GARDNER. Well, we are ascertaining the facts now. We are trying to get at the actual conditions, and when we submit our report to the Governments it is for them to devise the administrative part of it. These two great Governments have joined in this movement, and I do not think there is any question but that they will be able to put a stop to what they regard as an unwarranted abuse.

Mr. KING. Mr. Chairman, I came here on instructions from the Dominion Marine Association and with no intention of saying anything unless called upon. I have an opportunity of going home on the 4 o’clock boat, which I would take if I had any assurance that the question of the steamers is not coming any more definitely before the commission than it has to-day.

Mr. GARDNER. The commission held a hearing in Detroit for the special purpose of hearing the navigation interests, and they appeared there. If you have anything to say we shall be glad to hear it.

Mr. KING. I am not pressing for the opportunity, but I wish to furnish the commission any information that they wish to obtain with regard to the boats, and I did not like to leave without asking the commission if they desired to ask any questions.

Mr. GARDNER. So far as my recollection goes the representatives of the navigation interests were very ready at the Detroit meeting to adopt any methods or remedies that proved to be reliable and safe. So far as that feature of it is concerned we have regarded the matter as closed. We are in perfect accord with them and they with us.

Mr. KING. I understood from Prof. Phelps that the test is now being made on the Lakes.

Mr. GARDNER. It is, and in case there is any weakness I apprehend it will be remedied.

Mr. KING. I hope you will call upon us at any time you need information or assistance.

Mr. GARDNER. Mr. Irving, the commission is now ready to hear the representatives of the city of Ogdensburg.

STATEMENT OF MR. ANDREW IRVING, CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD OF PUBLIC WORKS OF OGDENSBURG, N. Y.

Mr. IRVING. Mr. Chairman, the mayor of Ogdensburg was called away, and will not be back again until after the first of the month. The board of public works is represented, as is also the board of water commissioners. I am president of the board of public works and Mr. Darrow is president of the board of water commissioners. We are prepared to give you any information that you may desire with regard to the sewerage and water here. The city engineer is also present, as well as the superintendent of the waterworks.

Mr. GARDNER. Are you prepared to go on now?

Mr. IRVING. Yes; I would be glad to do so.

Mr. GARDNER. As president of the board of public works all the public utilities come under your supervision, do they?

Mr. IRVING. We have nothing to do with the water board. That is a separate and distinct commission. Mr. Darrow represents that commission. We have charge of the sewers, the building of the sewers, and the building of the streets and public works.

Mr. MAGRATH. What is the population of Ogdensburg?

Mr. IRVING. About 18,000; that is, including the inmates of the State hospitals.

Mr. POWELL. You simply do the work of constructing the sewers and the manner and time of such construction is determined by the State authorities?

Mr. IRVING. Yes, sir. I might more fully answer your question by explaining our sewerage system. In 1872 Col. George E. Waring, jr., was employed by the city of Ogdensburg to make a report upon a system of sewers, which he did. He also presented plans and gave a report as to the best method of sewering the city. Practically all sewers that have been built since that time have been built on what is called the Waring plan. The law provides that a sewer can not be built unless plans are submitted to the two State commissions, the State board of health and the State conservation commission. They have to approve the plans before the sewers are built. After those plans are adopted and approved by the two different commissions, then our board constructs the sewers. That, of course, is obligatory on the part of the city corporation.

Mr. GARDNER. That same condition applies all over the State?

Mr. IRVING. I believe it does. It certainly does so far as we are concerned. It applies to all cities of our class, at any rate. We are a city of the third class.

Mr. GARDNER. You discharge your raw sewage into the St. Lawrence River?

Mr. IRVING. It all gets in there ultimately.

Mr. GARDNER. Have you ever considered any plans for its purification and sterilization?

Mr. IRVING. Practically we have not; no, sir. We have in a sort of a desultory way spoken about it, because we can appreciate what a necessary thing it would be, but we have never seriously considered any plan.

Mr. POWELL. Have the State authorities ever urged any plan upon you?

Mr. IRVING. No. Of course there is a general proposition always floating about by the State authorities that the best way would be a sewage-disposal plant of some kind, but it has never been brought absolutely before us in concrete form. There has never been any mandate issued that we should do that. As a matter of fact, within the last year consent has been given to us to still empty the large sewer into what is practically the St. Lawrence River.

Mr. GARDNER. What is the assessed valuation of the city?

Mr. IRVING. I think it is about $6,000,000.

Mr. POWELL. What is the population?

Mr. IRVING. We consider it to be 18,000 people. That includes the State institution down here.

Mr. MAGRATH. Have you any complaint to make against the Canadian municipalities in the matter of pollution?

Mr. IRVING. No; we are all in the same boat.

Mr. MIGNAULT. Have you actually made any studies with regard to a sewage purification plant?

Mr. IRVING. We never have. It has never been contemplated. It is one of those questions that I presume we felt was a bridge that would have to be crossed some time.

Mr. MAGRATH. How is your sewerage system situated with regard to a purification plant? Have you one outlet or several?

Mr. IRVING. We have about 15 outlets altogether.

Mr. MIGNAULT. It would be necessary to have an interceptor?

Mr. IRVING. I may say that while Col. Waring suggested that at some time some different system of disposal would be necessary, he did not provide in the plan for any connection. You see we are lying right along the front of the St. Lawrence, and our outlets reach from up at one end of the city down to the other.

Mr. MIGNAULT. Where is your waterworks intake?

Mr. IRVING. The intake is well up above any local sewage. The water commissioners will explain all that to you and give you some valuable information regarding the contamination that they discovered when they put in the intake.

Mr. MIGNAULT. You have no idea, have you, as to what it would cost to install a purification plant?

Mr. IRVING. I have not the slightest idea. While Mr. Paterson was telling you what could be done I was interested in reading a few remarks that were made by Col. Waring in 1872, when he suggested our sewerage system. He said: